Draft
Minutes of ASC OP Meeting
Monday, October 20, 2008, 1:30 p.m. 3:00 p.m.
Rochester Plaza Hotel, River Room
70 State St., Rochester, NY 14614
Present
Participants (10 of 21 + 2 alt.)
Representing
Committee Members
David Aikens
Savvy Optics
Sam Bailey (alternate)
Davidson Optronics, Inc.
Gordon Boultbee
JDS Uniphase Corporation
Andrei Brunfeld
Xyratex
Walter Czajkowski
APOMA (Edmund Optics)
Frank Dombrowski
Gage-Line Technology, Inc.
Marla Dowell
IEEE/LEOS
Marla Dowell
NIST
Lincoln Endelman
SPIE (Endelman Enterprises)
Charles Gaugh
Davidson Optronics, Inc.
John Hamilton (by phone)
Northrop Grumman
Rudolf Hartmann
Honorary
Hal Johnson
Harold Johnson Optical
Allen Krisiloff
Triptar Lens Co., Inc.
Wayne R. McKinney
Lawrence Berkeley National Lab
Jonathan McGuire
Northrop Grumman Laser Systems
Bruce Netherton
Lockheed Martin Coherent Technologies
Kathleen Richardson
School of Materials Science & Eng., Clemson
William E. Royall
Honorary
Peter Takacs
Brookhaven National Lab.
Trey Turner
Research Electro-Optics, Inc.
Steven VanKerkhove
Corning Tropel
Ray Williamson
Ray Williamson Consulting
Observers (3)
Jessica E. DeGroote
Optimax Systems, Inc.
Gene Kohlenberg
OEOSC
Rick Plympton
Optimax Systems, Inc.
Welcome and Introductions
S. VanKerkhove was unable to attend so A. Krisiloff opened the meeting at 1:41 p.m.
Adoption of Agenda
G. Boultbee moved that the draft agenda be approved; A. Tourtlotte seconded the motion which passed unanimously.
Approval of the Sunday, January 21, 2008 ASC OP Meeting Draft Minutes
G. Boultbee asked what a 'Gold Partner' is. A. Krisiloff said that Solidworks has partners who may make add-ons. G. Boultbee
moved that the draft minutes be approved. W. Royall seconded the motion; the motion passed unanimously.
Reports
Performance Based Optical-Surface Imperfection Standard
G. Boultbee said that this pertains to OP1.002, which is commonly called 'scratch and dig'. It has been modified to
include measurement using concepts found in MIL -C-48497A, "Coating, Single or Multilayer, Interference: Durability
Requirements For" and MIL-F-48616 "Filter (Coatings), Infrared Interference, General Specification For." The standard was
balloted and approved. It now will go to ANSI for final approval.
There were some good ideas offered that were too late for this ballot. A third edition will be edited to include those items
and will be presented at the January meeting.
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Draft Minutes of ASC OP 10-20-08 Meeting.odt
ANSI/OP Draft Minutes continued, Monday, October 20, 2008, 1:30 p.m. 3:00 p.m.
Rochester Plaza Hotel, River Room, Rochester, NY
Wavefront Specification Project
D. Aikens said that this project was started in Boulder, CO in June 2005. The principle problem is that it has too broad a
scope to converge to a usable standard. OP1.005 has become ISO 10110-8. He proposes that the Task Force be asked if it
wants to create a wavefront measurement standard that documents how to make the measurements. He recommends that a
new national standard should not be created to replace ISO 10110-5.
D. Aikens suggested that the Task Force be asked to revise its charter at the meeting being held the next day.
ISO Standards Development Projects
Adoption of ISO 10110-1 and 10 as an American National Standard (ANS)
D. Aikens said that the Task Force has a strategy for ISO 10110-2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 1 and 10. The strategy for Parts 1 and 10 needs to
be clarified. Since there are modifications to the ISO versions of Parts 1 and 10, these documents will have to have unique OP
numbers assigned to them, with references to the ISO 10110 original.
ANSI draft license agreement for national adoption of ISO Standards
The Secretary said that he has a draft of the ANSI agreement for royalties charged when an ISO document is adopted as an ANS.
No royalty percentages are included in the document because the final document is not completed for ANSI to review. The document
will be almost entirely composed of ISO material, so he presumes that the royalty will be the maximum of what they charge.
The Secretary said that he remembered a conversion with ANSI, and he inferred that OEOSC could charge whatever it wanted for
the ANS version of the ISO standards. So OP should recommend what that price should be. (ISO 10110-1 is $110, and ISO 10110-10
is $73.)
W. Royall said that there is a large variation in what standards organizations charge for standards. ANSI standards could be in the
$50 range while ISO standards could average twice that figure. Telecom standards can be $1,000 each. ISO standards are priced in
Euros, so US costs can fluctuate. An attractive consistent price could help sell OEOSC standards. OEOSC could generate more
revenue through volume rather than unit price. M. Dowell asked if the volume would come from more copies to each company or
more copies to additional companies. D. Aikens said that most companies do not have copies. They work off of the drawings.
The Secretary said that Harvey Pollicove set the $35 price because most of the old PH3 standards had that price. A. Krisiloff asked
the time frame of the PH3 standards. The Secretary said most of them would have been created in the 1960s and 1970s.
W. Royall said that there is a lot of detail in standards that manufacturers do not need. So if they create cheat sheets to describe
how to read the notation, and test in traditional ways, they will probably successfully manufacture the parts. He said that the higher the
price of the standard, the higher probability that there will be illegal copies made. So there needs to be a balance in pricing.
The Secretary said that ANSI/OEOSC OP1.002 has a $35 charge for the pdf version, and $50 for the color printed version. To
date no paper copies have been ordered. Color copies are printed for the training sessions. Those copies are printed on a color copier
at the Secretary's church for $0.25 per 11" x 17" side.
M Dowell suggested that if OEOSC wants to get the widest distribution of the standards as possible, that it could just give the pdf
version away on its website. The Secretary replied that OEOSC has an agreement with ANSI which allows ANSI to sell the pdf
version on its website. ISO would object if OEOSC gave away ANS versions of ISO documents because ISO wants its royalty.
D. Aikens reminded the group that OEOSC has a revenue problem, and should not cavalierly give away standards.
W. Royall asked what version of the standard would be available on the ANSI website if OEOSC adopts an ANS version. The
Secretary that he did not know, but he presumed that ANSI would want to favor the ANSI version. W. Royall continued by asking if
the ANS version were at a very attractive price, would it have credibility if both versions were available on the website. The Secretary
replied that if the ANS version were ANSI/ISO then the ISO equivalent would probably not be listed also. If the ANS version were
ANSI/OEOSC, then they both would probably show up. W. Royall said that when he looks for a standard on IHS, he sees versions in
several languages. The Secretary said that IHS is a private company that makes money by reselling standards. If they were to request
an OEOSC standard from us, they would ask for a discount.
A. Krisiloff proposed that OEOSC establish a new pricing for the revised OP1.002 standard of $50 for PDF, and $70 for paper.
M. Dowell suggested a $100 figure. G. Boultbee said that $100 is too much; the US optics industry would continue to use the old
withdrawn military standards with all of their faults. She countered that the price should then be $10. A. Krisiloff said that the price
should be proportional to the value of the standard. W. McKinney said that he agreed with the concept of respect for the document.
D. Aikens moved that OEOSC establish new prices of $50 for pdf copies of future standards and $70 for paper copies, or the price
ISO charges if it is less than $50 for a corresponding international version. M. Dowell seconded the motion. The motion passed
unanimously.
ISO 10110-6 NWP
R. Williamson said that there has to be a number of changes to make the document functionally useful The Task Force agreed that
the document could be adopted in the US before it moved through the ISO process. He expects to have a draft ready for the January
meeting.
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Draft Minutes of ASC OP 10-20-08 Meeting.odt
ANSI/OP Draft Minutes continued, Monday, October 20, 2008, 1:30 p.m. 3:00 p.m.
Rochester Plaza Hotel, River Room, Rochester, NY
Other Business
G. Boultbee asked that the secretary's summary of how US versions of ISO standards may be numbered be made available. The
Secretary said that he would put it up on the OEOSC website.
One-Hour Short Overview A. Krisiloff said that he would have a draft ready before the January meeting. He thought about using
Yahoo to provide an interactive review of the draft.
D. Aikens said that this would be good material to present at local OSA chapters and OSA student chapters.
Glass Course. A. Krisiloff is getting closer to having a draft available.
Release ISO 10110 Verbatim. R. Plympton asked why OEOSC should not release the ISO versions without change and then
begin to propose modifications. D. Aikens asked members of ASC OP to e-mail thoughts to him.
Training Materials. D. Aikens is updating OP1.002 training material. He will be asking for input before he goes to the APOMA
meeting in November. He has been told that the ISO 10110 course is too long. He will try to make it three half-day classes. He asked
for volunteers to help update the material.
Time and Place for Next OP Meeting
G. Boultbee moved that the OP meeting be held in San Jose, CA on Monday, January 26, 2009. D. Aikens seconded the motion,
which carried.
Adjourn
Since there was no further business to come before the committee, W. Royall moved that the meeting be adjourned. R. Williamson
seconded the motion. The meeting was adjourned at 3:06 p.m.
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Draft Minutes of ASC OP 10-20-08 Meeting.odt